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Andrew Blum, Author of Tubes

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I will read all the info chatted so far..

 

Rank: Cave Painter

good day to all

Rank: Cyborg

thank you 

Rank: Cyborg

Andrew, many thanks for joining us today!

Thinkernetter

Many thanks, Andrew.

Thinkernetter

Reading it on the Kindle app on my Nexus. 

Thinkernetter

I'm precisely 31% of the way into it. 

Thinkernetter

Thank you all. Excellent questions. Those of you lucky owners of Tubes, enjoy! ;)

Rank: Cave Painter

If your next project is tech-related, please let us know. 

Thinkernetter

Thanks again for joining us!

Thinkernetter

And it's the top of the hour, time to release Andrew. 

Thinkernetter

I have mine ordered!

Thinkernetter

Andrew -- and maybe I'll learn to spell collectible while reading it....

IQ Crew

Thanks Lin!

Tubes is a fun read, I promise. 

Rank: Cave Painter

Or it's the Internet, of course. 

Rank: Cave Painter

The service provided by the telephone is more straightforward. It's either "can you hear me now" -- or it's not! 

Rank: Cave Painter

Mitch, that's a good analogy. I beleive that the Internet has become so central to our lives, that some of us are ready to pay a little more for it, if we're going to get more. 

Picture your cup of coffee 20 years ago. Now picture your most recent Starbucks order!

Rank: Cave Painter

Andrew - thanks for taking the time to talk with us.  You've inspired me to buy your book (suppose that was the point of the talk).  The Kindle version, not the collectable one listed for $100 on Amazon.  

IQ Crew

@ajblum - Do we require more transparency from the phone system?

Thinkernetter

Trade routes without camels, wider roads from where more profit can be make.

Rank: Cave Painter

Kim - Ha! We crossed messages there. Yes, airlines are very opaque but it outrages us. when Internet networks are opaque, we are more inclined to tolerate it. 

Thinkernetter

and Mitch, that's an especially interesting contrast with the telephone system. 

Rank: Cave Painter

Andrew, you were talking during our interview about the networks being held accountable. It occurs to me that this is a way that air travel is similar, and we demaind more accountability of airlines. Most of the time, if we fly from new York to Los Angeles, we don't care about the route or eve the kind of plane. but if there's a delay, we insist on knowing why. 

Thinkernetter

Unlike airlines, for example, very behind-the-scenes, invisible and mysterious.

Thinkernetter

One of my "tour guides" to NANOG just wrote this really nice desciprtion of my interaction with the community: http://community.brocade.com/community/brocadeblogs/service_providers/blog/2012/07/18/new-book-tubes-a-journey-to-the-center-of-the-internet

Rank: Cave Painter

In many respects the Internet is similar to the network of roads, or commercial air, or even shipping. It ties the world together, and it was built by small pieces coming together, rather than through central planning.

Thinkernetter

Mary Jander - Sounds like Usenet 20 years ago. 

Thinkernetter

Mary, they are a very smart group. And waht's interesting is that they're all about relationships. Their focus is the INTER in internet. They exist to connect -- literally! -- with others.

Rank: Cave Painter

At least, good communicators.

Thinkernetter

I find the nanog folk great humorists and good writers often.

Thinkernetter

And it really is a human construction! It's about the people who built it. It's not automatic in any sense. 

Rank: Cave Painter

It's certainly a fascinating example of something of global importance coming together in such a manner.

Thinkernetter

Google has shaped their service to chinese users inorder to keep in touch with the chinese market, this is revenue driven to survive in a planned economy, what a mix, lol.

Rank: Cave Painter

Mary, the NANOGers are my stars. I describe my visit to the NANOG conference in Tubes, and their importance in running the internet. (And I suppose a few of their quirks as well ;) )

Rank: Cave Painter

When I kid about Bazinga T-shirts, BO, and Cheetohs I DO IT WITH LOVE. Heh. 

Thinkernetter

They're a down-to-earth lot, those engineers. I've worked at places where I had closer contact with them, and always enjoy it. 

Thinkernetter

Kim, somehwere in between. I came away very impressed with the abilities of the network engineers who run the Internet. And I also have a lot of respect for the Internet as the ultimate "emergent" system -- designed not by any single organization, but arising out of the thousands of collective decisions. It's a fascinating model. 

Rank: Cave Painter

There are often very funny and interesting events going on.

Thinkernetter

I know 60 Hudson.  Pic:  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/60_Hudson_Street.jpg/250px-60_Hudson_Street.jpg

Thinkernetter

@Andrew: I am often intrigued by the world of Internet engineers. I subscribe to teh North American Network Operators (nanog) mailing list.

Thinkernetter

@fieldengineer - There needs to be a balance between, on the one hand, the government operating in the public interest, stepping in where the market fails, and, on the other hand, businesses pursuing their own and their customers' best interests. Usually, when people say, "there needs to be a balance," I respond, "Get your hand out of my pocket and your camera out of my bedroom," but in this case I think the statement is warranted. 

Thinkernetter

Andrew, did you come away from your explorations amazed that the Internet actually works?  Or did it all seem well-organized and orderly?

Thinkernetter

Mitch, some definitely looked like the back of a shopping mall. But a few were quite beautiful. 60 Hudson is amazing -- it was built as Western Union's HQ in 1930. And Facebook's data center is a remarkbal piece of modern architcetre. 

 

http://archrecord.construction.com/features/GDGB/2012/Facebook-Data-Center.asp

Rank: Cave Painter

Google has an extremely high profile when it comes to peering. They have hired the best "peering coordinators" in the business, and because they generate so much traffic (Youtube!), they are the elephant in any room. 

Rank: Cave Painter

In Canada we pay more to get similar service, and our law protects enterprise over users.

Rank: Cave Painter

@ajblum - Most of the buildings you visited were very unglamorous, right?

Thinkernetter

Does Google have an especially high profile in those peering pts?

Thinkernetter

Yes, Mitch -- that hsa become an occupationl hazard for me!

Rank: Cave Painter

# "TUUUUUBES IIIIIN SPAAAAACE!!!" #

Thinkernetter

Mary, yes, they are two of the most important buildings where networks -- more networks than anywhere else -- physically interconnect

Rank: Cave Painter

@fieldengineer - Nowhere is this mix more evident than on the Internet.

Thinkernetter

Oaksong, for the INternet as most of us use it, space is a rounding error.

Rank: Cave Painter

Andrew, excuse my ignorance here, but 111 8th and 60 Hudson are famous peering points, right? In NYC

Thinkernetter

@fieldengineer - America has historically been a mix of free enterprise and planned economy, from the very beginning until today. 

Thinkernetter

Mitch, it is Google. I find their stance towards all of our understanding to be very strange for the ultimate information company! I wrote about that recently, in a piece called" "Google Thinks You're Stupid." 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/05/29/google-thinks-you-re-stupid-and-works-to-keep-you-in-the-dark.html

And I lay out that argument in greater depth in Tubes. 

Rank: Cave Painter

50! That's a lot of datacenters. 

Thinkernetter

Fee Enterprise - private investments - revenue driven.

Planed Econony - public owned - entitled access.

These two are totally different systems. Until they merged, users will be left to one of them.

 

Rank: Cave Painter

Google? (guessing)

Thinkernetter

Lin, it was really all about process. As a journalist I saw my job as to determine the most important places, and visit them as efficiently as possible, in order to write the book as soon as possible and keep it timely. I visited nearly fifty diferent data centers in N. America and Europe. I didn't wanted to waste my "ammo" on access for 111 8th, when I knew it was quite similar to 60 Hudson. I preferred to save my energy and google's for their Oregon data center. 

Rank: Cave Painter

SKynet? Which does bring up the question, how much traffic is in space?

Rank: Web master

@ajblum - I'm actually not sure which network you're concerned about. Is it Google?

Thinkernetter

lin, good question. Worth answering to set a foundation for my question.

Thinkernetter

Kim asks: "Could private owners of the tubes close the Internet if they chose to?  Or is too disparate a network for any one owner to shut it down?"

-- in grand philosophical terms, since the Internet is a network of networks you only need two to make a "new Internet." Practically speaking, I'd say the whole enterprise depends on a healthy diversity of networks. Which means we should be cautious of one network growing too large. (And can you guess which one i might have in mind???)

Rank: Cave Painter

Andrew - may I ask why you did not seek access?  Did you not feel access was necessary, did you feel asking would be futile, or ....

IQ Crew

lin crampton, thanks for bringing that up. Andrew, you found Google to be the most secretive of the companies you dealt with. Am I getting that right?

Thinkernetter

Thanks, Andrew!

Thinkernetter

Kim Davis - We're already seeing a lot of that under cover of copyright protection. 

Thinkernetter

Lin, I spent a lot of time in both Equinix and Telx's other facilities in NY, Virginia, and California, but I did not seek access to the exchange point at 111 8th ave. 

Rank: Cave Painter

Could private owners of the tubes close the Internet if they chose to?  Or is too disparate a network for any one owner to shut it down?

Thinkernetter

Kim Davis - Government moves to acquire control of the Internet - yes. 

Thinkernetter

I think I heard that you were not given total access to a Google facility in Oregon.  Did you ask to see the internals in their NY hub (the building Google bought several years).

IQ Crew

In terms of the interne't vulnerability, I think that the physical pieces are actually quite robust. There are redundant physical links, redundant exchange points, substantial security, etc. The greater risk to the Internet is 1) the "cyber" threat and 2) -- and I mean this a bit tongue in cheek -- legislation. 

Rank: Cave Painter

That's it, the Dubai conference.  I am surprised there haven't been government moves to acquire control of the Tubes.

Thinkernetter

Privately owned and yet usually built on publicly owned resources, yes? Rights-of-way that are basically seized by government using eminent domain?

Thinkernetter

For instance, I know that most of the "root servers" are located in the US. But aren't there some other points where important servers are under threat?

Thinkernetter

Mary, I can answer that. 

Rank: Cave Painter

The interesting thing to remember is that the Internet is 100% privately owned. There is no "pubvlic internet." So ownership is always an issue in some ways. The conference in Dubai in December is the International Telecom Unions attempt to -- perhaps -- regulate the interent as they ahve telephone charges. But the good news is, my sources in the industry say it probably won't amount to much. 

Rank: Cave Painter

Kim Davis - Die hard ... in a TUBE. 

Thinkernetter

Also, I am sure there's a great Poseidon Adventure III to be made about terrorists seizing control of them.

Thinkernetter

Andrew, where do you think the Internet is most vulnerable?

Thinkernetter

oaksong, was there a bit about undersea cables in Cryptonomicon? I Missed that. 

 

Thinkernetter

Sure, Kim, I can talk about that.

Rank: Cave Painter

I was wondering -- I know there's a big international telecoms conference coming up this year -- whether ownership of these cables could become an issue.

Thinkernetter

Anything I missed in chat?

Thinkernetter

Hey, any questions for our guest, Andrew Blum? 

Thinkernetter

But a lot has changed in undersea cables in the 15 years since he wrote that, so it was interested for me to revisit some of those same places. 

Rank: Cave Painter

I think we hit our half-hour limit.  I hope you invite Andrew back.  I think he has a lot more interesting things he can talk about.

IQ Crew

That's as scheduled. Did you get cut off in mid-word?

 

Thinkernetter

Never got connected :(

Rank: Web master

We're off the audio.

Thinkernetter

Oaksong -- Stephenson's Mother Earth Board piece in Wired was a real touchstone for me.  

Rank: Cave Painter

I didn't lose audio, it just went to the Internet radio

Thinkernetter

did anyone else lose audio?

 

IQ Crew

Are we off the air now?

Thinkernetter

Stephenson's (author, Wired contributor) novel on many things Internet .... and beyond

Rank: Web master

What is that, oaksong?

Thinkernetter

Underseas cloud.

Thinkernetter

To learn about undersea cables, read Cryptonomicon.

Rank: Web master

Just 10 or 12 cables undersea. That seems very small.

Thinkernetter

At last, we can find out how to break the Interwebs.

Thinkernetter

The undersea cables for the Internet are very intriguing.

Thinkernetter

So the Internet smells like frustration?

Thinkernetter

Burning plastic and ozone!

Thinkernetter

The Internet smells?!

Thinkernetter

So you can hear now, fieldengineer?

Thinkernetter

Firefox not working but Chrome works! strange?

Rank: Cave Painter

or try refresh webpage

Rank: Cyborg

log out and relog in

Rank: Cyborg

all quiet on this front!

Rank: Cave Painter

i have audio.  worthwhile audio -- great speaker.

IQ Crew

still nothing

Rank: Cave Painter

@fieldengineer: Yes, I do. If you don't, try refreshing your browser.

Thinkernetter

Is everyone sitll there?

Thinkernetter

Hi Mary,

Do you get any audio?

 

 

Rank: Cave Painter

Hello Andrew! Welcome.

Thinkernetter
(yet 'nother aspiring 'cyborg' . . .)
Rank: Cave Painter

Hi all, happy to be here to talk about Tubes.

Rank: Cave Painter

Hi, everybody! a bit less than 4 minutes til showtime. I'm excited!

Thinkernetter

I attended few chats and other events

Rank: Cyborg

batye - how did you get to be a Cyborg?

Rank: Cave Painter

Good Afternoon

Rank: Cave Painter

see you all @ 2pm

Rank: Cave Painter
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