IT Ageism in Action

I turn 61 in a couple of days and had to retire early due to health problems. I've used computers since the days of 'Big Iron' being the only computers to today, when I have mine custom-built. I program in quite a few languages and have made a concerted effort, through personal training, to learn all the RIA languages. I made a mess of a project I was working on when I forgot to turn the computer off during an emergency trip to another state. GIGO all the way and no way I could fix it. So, I've abandoned it.

Now I do some security consulting and run into the same problem although I generally know more about what I'm doing than anyone in their company. But, due to my idiocy in not turning off a computer, maybe something in what they say is true. Of course they hired me to consult not to insult due to my age and perceived lack of knowledge. And that's perceived by 30-plus managers who know less than I do.

Seems that C-Level managers who are younger than the mid-40's are considered too young or too inexperienced for those jobs. Yet quite a few below that age are fully qualified.  And looking at today's screw-ups by so-called top-notch money managers I'm not too sure that hiring a younger peson might be better, or at least not any worse.

I'm qualified to consult on the projects they want me to. I recommend products, always more than one if possible, that fit their needs. Yet many times I'll run into a colleague, or worker at the firm, always younger than myself, who says another consultant was hired to do the same thing I did. I ask what were their recommendations and mostly get the answer that they have the same as I did. When they don't have that answer, I do research and find out if I was wrong. When I am I use that as a learning experience. Much like the learning experience I had when I forgot, in my rush to leave for the emergency trip, to turn off a computer. Simple thing to do, stupid thing not to do, but since I only had a very short notice, less than a day, possibly understood.

Aegism exists. Always has, always will. The best thing to do is combat it with a shorter resume with a codicil that says the resume can be expanded when the actual interview takes place, with the explanation being more experience but in the interest of brevity you posted a shorter resume than you could have. This might pique interest, or it might make the hiring person think that you are lying. Either way, you stand out. And hopefully the former not the latter.

But when I think of the possibilities of being something of a mover doing architechture vs. programing, how the innovations can become reality, that excites me and makes me wish I was able to work full-time today.

I graduated from college at the age of 20 with a degree in Biology, and spent 13 years working at some of the best molecular virlolgy labs in the country. After that I moved to Hawaii, and learned the hospitality business, becoming the GM of a resort on Waikiki.  Most recently I have been going to school to get an IS degree.

I have decided to start my own business.  Partly because I have been jaded by working in the corporate world, but mostly because no one will hire me.  The new thing I am running into, is that my previous employers are worried about liability suits and wont give references.  Heaven forbid they say I was an excellent employee, but one day at my new job I go postal.  The other thing I am running into, is that everybody wants to hire someone with 3-5 years experience.  They neither want to train someone, nor do they want to pay high salaries that come with expertise.  I also think the economy has a lot to do with things.  Here is SW Florida, a job that pays $9/hr will get hundreds of applicants in a day.  Unemployment is at an insane level, and competition is ridiculous.

The cards are stacked against those of us who were once considered the best employees money could buy. 

I'm glad you started this discussion. I've been on both sides of this issue ...I'm in my mid-40s looking for a new job after 10 years with a software company. All of my younger team members have already found new jobs.

On the other hand, when I was hiring people, I was only allowed to have contract staff and needed good people who were willing to be flexible. So I sought out less obvious candidates--part timers, under-credentialed, and older workers. 

My experience with more mature workers was that they wouldn't "partner" with me in solving problems. If they couldn't meet a deadline, get information they needed, manage the work load, they wouldn't tell me. Instead, they would hide out until the project was in crisis.

Oh, and the better ones would sometimes find an older male manager to report to. I mean, they still reported to me, technically, but they communicated everything with the older male and I'd have to ask him what was going on.

I'm telling you all this because maybe that's what's in the heads of younger hiring managers you're up against. I don't know if you can convince them you are different. That's what I'm trying to do. I hope you can too, and wish you all the best. 

Joss,

I understand your agony as we all in one way or other being victim and promoters of Stereotypes.

You have mentioned here about your passion to stay as programmer at golden age.  Interestingly a month ago on msdn discussion forum there was a young guy of about late 20 that started programming when he was 13 years old and now working to break the barrier to become architect.  He mentioned how he has been ridiculed that at his age he is not 'suitable to be an architect' and he should be a programmer.  He posed the question as 'should an architect have grey hair'.

My suggestion for him is to produce verifyiable references if he has proved his skills as architect.  Flip side for you, is the same, produce verifyiable reference that you are a programmer to the core.  Probably participating in some developer forums might even add to brand value 'programmer' Joss Miller.

End of the day, clearing an interview process needs luck for most part.  I have been interviewee and interviewer in recent past and also many times in my short 13 years career.  There is no one magic bullet way to find out if a candidate is fit for the role (Technical or leadership).  Taking a 'non-typical' persona to the interview is a tall order.  If anyone knows how to solve it, I would love to learn.

Tip: A recruiter told me anything more than 2 page resume is not good.  Even when you have 30 years of experience, only highlight the important ones.

{ Gaja; }

http://gajakannan.wordpress.com

Joss has been treated unfairly, not least by the comments here. We are having to adjust to a world where personaility is rated higher than technical expertise. However the effective introduction of computing needs technical expertise. We need to employ designers who can answer Joss's questions "I want to know how they design. I want to know how they debug. I want to know how they handle problems in the middle of the night when everything is broken"

It is these skills that we are getting increasingly short of. It is worrying that  we are beginning to see the breakdown of personality programing. Remember the Apple me.com implementation? Wonder why Google never lets anything out of beta testing?

The great Kathy Sierra got this exactly right with her graph "Which one wins?" which you can see at

http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2006/04/when_only_the_g.html

Well, No doubt the blog was touchy, emotional and sorry about the bitter experience going through it. I might be wrong and too young to understand the complexity of the situation but then why should it be humiliating process. U might be doing it for ages now but then software industry has changed and evolved much faster than advertisements on the television.People just might sometime need to make sure to ur upto date with technology. Your past experience can be best used in problem solving and architectural solutions than just programming must be the common thought process. I'm sure those fresh-faced little twits (as mentioned by Terry) wouldn't even be aware of your feelings.

I had a similar experience working with a person having work experience of my age and irony of the situation was that I was explaining him a protocol implementation scenario. Whole situation had nothing to do with age because the technology was 5 years old and both of us had same experience when it came to the protocol know-how.

Good luck!! 

"It is unlawful for a prospective employer to ask your age, so you don't have to give it, and removing such telling information from your resume at least keeps you from being discriminated against before an interview occurs"

Thanks for your suggestion, Paul.

Eventually during the interview process, you are going to have to look them in the eye. It's not that I've had so many jobs that fills out the resume, as I've had so many experiences.

As Terry observed in his post, it's as though they are embarrassed that they are not interested in you. I have a good deal of understanding about it all, I suppose. They are looking for coworkers who share their knowledge as opposed to old guys who might have war stories that will mean little to them. Old guys who "can't relate". I try to put myself in their shoes, but I always get back to the place that bits are bits and bytes are bytes and humor is humor, no matter one's age.

I'm not looking to make them old or keep me young. I just want to churn out code the same way I have for nearly 35 years. It may sound corny, but it's always given my life meaning, and I'm not ready to get off the marvelous ride.

Hi Ross,

Thanks for your very touchy blog which makes me look the mirror too often today to see if  ageing signs have not started to take hold of me yet. Reading your blog makes me feel that your six page resume may have reduced your chances of landing the job. Certainly there is ageism in the workplace and IT is not the only workplace suffering from this chalace. But the difficulty is that ageism in the workplace is so subtle that few can recognise it. 

Somebody made the following suggestion which may be helpful for you in the future:

"In order to protect yourself against ageism in the workplace, career experts advise you to eliminate the dates of your education and earliest work history from your resume. It is unlawful for a prospective employer to ask your age, so you don't have to give it, and removing such telling information from your resume at least keeps you from being discriminated against before an interview occurs"

Isn't that all the more interesting that seniors should all vote for Mccain! At least that sends the message to those without wrinkles that there is still usefulness in old age. 

...is that they just didn't want to hire you, but were either too polite or too afraid to say, "Sorry, this just doesn't feel like a fit."

Small wonder, in our litigation-happy culture.

Thanks for one of the more unsettling blogs we've had on ThinkerNet in some time (especially for those of us looking down the barrel of 50).

There's life and career life in middle age; don't let these fresh-faced little twits get you down.